A conversation (fight) starter?

I think you raise some interesting items for debate, and that is a big part of what your experience is all about... right? Are you trying to pull us into your classroom and share the experience? I don't even think it's just Americans that struggle with being "politically correct". But we do hide it better in mixed company. So will Turks that have moved to Germany start to use Turkish-German etc.,? or will they always be Turks living in Germany or drop the Turkish altogether in a generation or two? But then Germany doesn't have our past, where most everyone is technically an immigrant. Why do we still identify so strongly with our native lands? I think it's good to be aware of our ancestry, but when the countries of our "origin" start reaching double digits, it seems time to get more general and get to the continent, or just say “I am American”. Maybe to even the field I should say European-American? I think we really don’t want to be a melting pot. I also think when you are describing someone saying "Asian" saves time. So your point about why you are saying it should inspire us to examine what, if any, prejudice we have if we hear: Asian, African Hispanic, etc. My big question for debate is how do you move towards equality when you have Asian-American or African-American beauty contests, etc.? Why are still compartmentalizing people and groups? It’s a debatable issue if this is good and when this is a wall of separation.

Mark-

Excellent post. Good points. I hate the term political correctness. I hate it because I think the the term is used as a cover for white guilt and a mask for white racism. Your example of crossing the street to avoid an african-american man instead of a black man perfectly illustrates this.

But I also agree that language is very powerful and has painful consequences for those who don't fit the "norm" of white, middle-aged, straight men. Political correctness was created as a way to strip americans of hurtful language - language that was once used to "put people in their place". Language that is now meant to be inclusive...

And yet you are correct Mark. Why do we choose to disclose someone's ethnicity in situations where it is not necessary? Would the person being described even want to be identified as such? Will it change the perception of the person you are speaking to? And if so, how? All this is something to consider.

But Eric, I have to disagree with you on your post, specifically this passage.

"My big question for debate is how do you move towards equality when you have Asian-American or African-American beauty contests, etc.? Why are still compartmentalizing people and groups? It’s a debatable issue if this is good and when this is a wall of separation."

My question for you is: why have a Miss Gay USA contest... or gay clubs. Or any kind of gay space AT ALL? Because the gay experience in America is still different. And gay Americans like to take a respite from the straight world in a space that is totally queer. Because queer spaces are just a little bit more fun, a little more flamboyant. Because the music is better. And a lot of other reasons...

I wonder if America isn't compartmentalized so much because certain groups like to keep to themselves as it is that there is a need to celebrate their uniqueness. To celebrate where you and your family come from. To preserve the long journey of your family from a homeland faraway. When was the last time an Asian woman won the Miss America pageant wearing traditional dress for the evening wear competition? Doesn't happen. And it may not ever happen. Let's not ask folks to give up their history to make one BIG unified America. That's not an America where I want to live.

I thought about Mark's post today when I read some poetry of Walt Whitman to my class today. I said, "oh, just so you know, this guy was gay." Why did I tell my kids that? Because the last thing I want my fifth graders to think is that we only read works by straight folks. They need to know that there are all kinds of people around them, all of the time.

Does this mean that I qualify everything? Nope. Does this mean that I qualify everything other than "the norm?" Nope. I qualify sometimes, and only once. Next time we read Whitman, he's just Whitman.

I do agree that the whole PC thing is over the top, but there are still times I qualify. Sexuality, age, social status, whether or not the author was a socialist...I qualify these things if they impact or influence the work, and "I Sing the Body Electric" is, in my opinion, influenced by his sexuality.

Kjertsen,

I hope I didn't imply I wanted one big homogenous America! You raise some good points that I will continue to chew on, and fortunately I am conscious that I need to expand my awareness on this topic, so keep me thinking... But I do think you have to be careful when you have gender/ethnic specific groups. Since many all male schools and clubs have had to open the doors to female students, you could use the same argument on the Miss Gay USA contest, if someone wanted to enter and wasn't gay, but wanted the title, could they refuse an applicant based on their sexuality? Does the application ask: "are you Gay?" Could you overcome this by changing the title to the name to Miss Rainbow, and assume most applicants will understand the sponsors are Gay clubs/organizations? Same for the Miss Asian America... Fuck the Miss America pageant. It is bullshit. but you could set the agenda to encourage applicants to dress in native costume. The few glimpses of Miss Black America or Miss Asia America, have had little to do with their ethnic background, and have the typical Barbie slut couture. Maybe I need to research and see if the talent or other aspects of the pageant are more accepting of their culture. Even a "real" Miss America pageant where the judges aren't looking for Barbies on parade would encourage real contestants. Perhaps in lieu of swimsuit a tribute to your ancestors homeland could be worked in?? Okay I am rambling, but I feel there won't be an end to prejudice as long as some groups are allowed their own organizations and the majority of the population can't or is guilt ridden if they do. Bear in mind, the European-Americans won't be the majority for much longer... P.S. The last I checked the Gay bars are being heavily overrun by the straight college crowd. I hope this is a good sign that we are moving towards people accepting others for who there are, and showing we all can benefit from learning about people we don't understand.

I will greatly respect the first person that tells me to "Shut the fuck up" already. But after posting my comments today, it occured to me that Gay bars/clubs were not created to celebrate our diversity, they were dark out of the way places where we didn't get assaulted. We wouldn't have needed to create a "special" place if society hadn't refused us entry in mainstream society. I fear this may be true of most social/ethnic clubs in general. People can react so violently to differences, I wonder how many organizations are the result of either wanting to be surrounded by others just like themselves, or creating them out of a desire to feel valued. I think it's tragic when people can't see the value of diversity.

First let me say that I am proud to see Eric using "slut couture." It's still all over Atlanta. (Side note: the gentleman who took me to the Dead concert earned major bonus points when he said that he wished people would cover up. That's a good sign.)

Second, as I was getting ready for my date last night I considered my kids again. One thing that labeling CAN do is raise awareness, I think, especially self-labeling. My kids are 9 and 10 and 11. They experience racism everyday (as they tell me) but they don't yet have the complete language to describe their experiences. One reason that I use a large vocabulary in my classroom, one reason we discuss "PC Things" is so they can understand what they are up against.

At the same time, we don't fear each other in our classroom. I let my students ask me "why White people be doing that?" while making it clear that I am a single White person, not ALL White people.

I can recall labeling myself one thing or another (feminist, socialist, radical education theorist) and then being able to read and converse with others who self-labeled the same thing. This can be good. It can be lonely to be the only person into radical education, and finding others who are similar can be pleasing.

The problem is, of course, that folks get stuck with simply labeling--especially labeling OTHERS. And by "others" I mean anything beyond self-labeling. If I call Mark a radical, I'm out of line, unless he's told me to call him a radical. I'm not Mark.

So folks label each other cute terms like "Nordic-Ukrainian-Irish American" or "poverty-stricken" and think that they're doing something correct.

We should acknowledge that people in different groups/cultures/whatever term you want to use have experiences that may be similar amongst themselves but not experienced in the same way in other groups/cultures/whatever term you want to use. The problem is that Americans are quick to say that and then use that as an excuse to separate themselves from "the other" group.

When we decide that because we call someone XYZ we are free of our own -ism about XYZ, or that we understand XYZ, we are causing more problems than anything else.

Somehow I used a lot more words and said less.
I am doing the "I'm not worthy" body bow to Amanda's picture.

Thoroughly enjoyed all of the comments posted. Great dialogue, which I will not even attempt to compete with except to say that I much prefer all of your various views to that of some of my generation!! I love the "put it out there" attitude. Hi to Amanda, Eric and Kjersten...and Mark too!!

Hi Robbie!

Yes Amanda - you summed it up perfectly. It's all about the context of the information and intent of the speaker.

But is that all there is to be said about race today? We are meant to be attentive and conscious about our language, but what about certain learned behaviors that white people still exhibit (i.e. crossing the street to avoid a black man)?

And even if you don't exhibit such ingorant and anxiety-fueled behaviors... Inequalities still exist here in the U.S. and in South Africa - even if white people will no longer be the majority (here or in S.A.), white people will continue to dominate in corporate, governmental, and social leadership circles. What are the responsibilities of race-conscious white people in a world of racial inequalities today? Is it enough that you use the right terms in the right context, are nice to the people of color at work with whom you interact?

Kjersten, re: the responsibilities of race-conscious White people (RCWP)--

One thing I've seen too much of is RCWP spinning into this wallowing annoying, "Oh, I can't help my Whiteness" guilt thing. Jeez, that helps nobody and becomes selfish, egocentric, and obnoxious to boot. So I would say that's one thing NOT to do. ;)

I've also seen RCWP get nearly trampled (sp?) by being too nice due to their guilt. Again, not helpful.

I suppose the responsibilities of RCWP include educating--perhaps educating nonRCWP, perhaps educating RCnonWP on the fact that RCWP exist. I suppose that's what I do with my kids.

Now, does it strike anyone as ironic that in response to Mark's labelling post I have stolen from kjersten and use RCWP as an acronym? Hmmm...

Amanda-

I like the acronym - it's helpful because the term can't be otherwise shortened with concise language. I will start to use your appropriation as well, if only in this conversation.

I guess I don't consider white people who are riddled with guilt as RCWPs. They are aware of race issues, but they are paralyzed by their guilt to move the race dialogue forward. These people often appropriate other cultures and religions, assigning blame to their own religion and culture. But this does real harm to the culture they are appropriating, emptying cultural and religious practices of their original meanings by taking them out of context. That is why I shudder every time I see a dream catcher hanging of the rear view mirror in a white person's car. Dream catchers (as the name implies... but also in my simplified and incomplete understanding) are meant to be hung where a person sleeps.

And the people who buy the "'Oh, I can't help my Whiteness' guilt thing." really offends me. Because WP can. There are ways you can acknowledge the privilege you are afforded by the color of your skin. And it is important to acknowledge that much of what WP have is a result of privilege. White people aren't the ones who dominate every aspect of American power because they are naturally smarter, faster, and wiser with money. They have access to knowledge and sometimes old money. The fact that I rarely get pulled over by Boston traffic cops (who don't have the best record in terms of racial profiling). The fact that I am not followed through a store by the suspicious eyes of a store clerk when I'm perusing for CDs. I think it is important to acknowledge that even if you worked hard for something (a college degree, a promotion, etc.) that it is equally true that privilege allowed you to earn the distinction. I don't think it's necessary to try to step down from all this privilege - you can't really give it all back anyway. But I do think it is important to distinguish between what you have earned and what you were given (and sometimes the boundary between the two is extremely blurry).

I agree that I think it is my duty to call WP out when they say messed up things that I know will harm or hurt others. Or in the very least, let them know they can't speak like that in my company. This is not easy. People don't like to hear it. And I don't like to put myself out too far with people that I don't think will get it.

But where is Mark in all this? He probably has some very interesting things to say about race right now... being in South Africa. Is he saving it all for a new post?